I think what is really hard about these discussions is that so much needs to be said to properly contextualize our arguments; and it is because of this that I always give the benefit of the doubt to us agreeing.

Not exactly sure where I implied that it is all or nothing in regard to being a Christian and voting; maybe the “compromise” part. Because I went on to say that Christians need to be in politics. Nevertheless, Christians have obviously compromised themselves over the past few generations. This by no means we aren’t doing a lot good in other areas such as charity, recovery, homeschooling, etc…

Trust me Paul, what I’m looking for is a plan, a path… hope. I am looking at the bigger picture and to my childrens’ futures. These elections are very short term solutions and that is what enrages me about Christians is they can’t see more than four years ahead of their nose. I’m not making any ill judgments upon other Christians like yourself or Matt but in so many words I’m calling upon you to look ahead; and if you’ve already done this then say something!. : ) . I already know what the present and the next four years will bring. But what about the next forty years, how are we going to realize our plans? I basically already answered this with the bottom/up (individual, family, church, etc) solution. More specifically though what strategies are we going to use?

I think our previous politicians have done a good job, already, of re-engineering society; its been happening for the past ~70 years. This mostly comes from the Church retreating to inside its doors because it was to scared to make a defense for itself. The beginning of this I date back to the 1830s when Mormonism and Evolutionism started. Then came Jehovah’s Witnesses, naturalism, modern humanism, and then in the 60s-70s the Eastern relativism. Beginning in 1910 premil-dispensationalism took a foothold from Scofield which further encouraged Christians to be impotent in their world; this mindset lasting even today with the baby boomer generation. Point being we have ALOT of work to do. I’m not trying to make this a history lesson, I just like pointing these things out.

Like I said you make good points why McCain is better of which I can’t argue with. But guess what in another four years you’ll be making the same type of post and then in eight years another… Lets start today thinking further than this. You and Matt always makes these types of posts, but I’d like to know your underlying ideas about the future; make another post on that. If you notice that is the majority of my posts and I think our points of views compliment each other; I see that and I hope you do also.

First, you are absolutely correct that long term systemic change can only come from a shift in the hearts and minds of ordinary Americans to the Lord. I don’t deny that. But you underestimate the power of the state. As an economist, I’ve learned the power of incentives. Sure they don’t control anything by a long shot, but they are powerful. For example, a change in the law allowing no-fault divorce led to a huge spike in the number of divorces right after those types of laws were passed. The law was restraining them, making it more difficult for them to act immorally.

So the state can do some, though I agree very limited, good. And I don’t think McCain is going to do a lot of good, I don’t know if he’s really going to do any good. But I know he will do far less harm than Obama. Government takes a LONG time to change and turn. The further it goes down the path to socialism, the harder and longer will be the road back.

Something I think you are wrong about is your reasoning for not voting for McCain. You seem to think it’s a zero sum game out there. That somehow if you vote for McCain you can’t be spending time as a good Christian either. I think that’s a false dichotomy. We should be doing the former without neglecting the latter. What did Jesus say to the Pharisees? He told them they made a show of offering their allotted amounts of spices at the temple and made long showy prayers. But they had no compassion, on the inside they were unclean. He tells them they should have done the latter (had compassion and purified themselves in holy living) WITHOUT neglecting the former.

I argue the same here, don’t neglect politics. You’re right, individually our votes are practically meaningless. But we must live our Christian witness first and foremost, apart from politics. But we should also talk politics with those who are unsure or disagree. We need change on every front, most direly in people coming to the Lord, but also in people’s understanding of the markets and government and society.

I read your post about how government’s gain power in wartime. You made a pretty good case, but I don’t entirely agree. Much of the government bureaucracy has come during non-war years. The income tax came BEFORE WWI. Most of FDR’s new deal came BEFORE WWII. But I concede other major things have happened during wars. LBJ’s “Great Society” and of course the Civil War.

A final note on who you are to vote for in good conscience. I hate to say McCain because I don’t like him, but here is why I still say it.

The policies enacted by this coming president, and every president for that matter, have ramifications that echo long past their time in office. What will taxes be like? How much debt will we saddle our children and grandchildren with? And most importantly, will the highest court in the land allow school vouchers? Will they allow homeschooling? What will they say about gay marriage? What will they say about a Christian’s right to speak the truth in public? These are important questions the the Court has way too much control over. Are we going to get a measly middle of the road court appointee? Or are we going to get a bonified socialist Progressive through and through? A Socialist who is not afraid to try and re-engineer society, to dictate morality and virtue? That is my fear, not that we get that right away, but that we move in that direction.

I honestly have no argument, as you pointed out many reasons, that McCain is overall a better candidate compared to Obama. McCain has also been through the ringer a lot longer than Obama and although I consider a McCain a Rhino I actually think he’s more honest than Obama. We must also consider the fact that as soon as the candidate becomes a President the reality and hardship of being President, hits home. Bush is a pathetic second term President.

As to your first three points: I realize where you are coming from and why you are concerned but to call upon the State to save conservative values is a fallacy. It wasn’t the government that first condoned abortion, homosexual marriage, etc. It was the American citizen and those who disagreed were nowhere to be heard from. It was also the American voter who elected the President and Congress. The State is NOT going to save us! If this is how you think then you’ve already lost to the modern liberal because they want us to believe the State is the answer. The answer is the Church and Christians need to make a radical change in their thinking and lifestyle. We must be the change!

The change, which many of us are doing already, entails first a stable good marriage, greatly limiting debt, having more than two children (Lord willing), and homeschooling…. self government by being a CHRISTIAN. This is the greatest threat to modern liberalism. Let me ask you all something? When have socialists given up ground? When have they given us a moment to breathe? Are we not the ones who must now defend ourselves from such accusations as “bigot,” “racist,” “homophobe,” and so forth? This is because Christians have COMPROMISED!!! We are COMPROMISED! It just enrages me that we must bend over to these fools we call politicians; and they love it and take advantage of us. If we really have any hope of taking back America anytime soon we must make these changes; and God calls upon us to be faithful, reasonable and bold.

This by no means we have no purpose in politics, in fact I argue for the complete opposite. Nor does this mean we are suppose to be idiots about politics but to turn the tables on the socialists and expose them for who they are! Stop making deals with these proverbial devils and put forth your own agenda and show why it is better. We have the evidence on our side from logical arguments to empirical studies; for example, ones that show abortions hurt mothers, homeschooling is superior, etc.

Evil only reins because the good do nothing.

Ideally I think it is very foolish to vote for a Democrat or Republican because they are solely compromised and if in fact they are conservative then let them call themselves something else. Although I know, practically speaking, this is hoping for too much because the entire nation is bought and sold into the two party system. So tell me then when and where will we draw the line? How much longer shall we, the slowly boiled frog, wait before we jump? When homeschooling is illegal (they’re trying for it here in CA); when you can marry anyone you want, including children; when it becomes a crime to be a Christian? Because there’s nothing to indicate the modern liberals are trying for anything less than this.

I honestly don’t know if I’ll vote. I realize I’m a part of the people, but let us have what we deserve as a people! If we have this compromise in the next election then we prevented nothing; meaning in ten years we’ll be voting for Obama over another more crazy modern liberal. Don’t you see the pattern!? Historically speaking the ONLY thing that turns a nation around is a revolution (not necessarily violent), something that sparks the people to turn to the LORD; this is often an incredible time of hardship. Just because we’re not in shackles like Israel under Babylon doesn’t mean we aren’t slaves already; slavery first begins in the mind and heart and then the body.

So you tell me whom I am supposed to vote for in good conscience.